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In this episode of Marketing Factories, a podcast by Effie Europe and REBORRN, Dafni Prosalika (Partner at REBORRN) welcomes two of the most senior voices in the industry, from opposite sides of the table: Charley Stoney, Chief Executive Officer of EACA (the European Association of Communications Agencies) and President of VoxComm, and Stephan Loerke, Chief Executive Officer of the WFA (World Federation of Advertisers). Between them they speak for the agencies and the advertisers: around 130,000 agency professionals across 30 countries, and over 10,000 of the world's brands.The conversation centres on a model in flux. Both are candid that the way agencies are paid, time and materials, was never a great model, and that AI has turned it into an existential question. Stephan's view is blunt: clients no longer want to buy hours, they want to buy impact. Charley maps what is replacing the old model, from output and licensing fees to royalties and productised process, and why Europe's roughly €1 billion a year pitching habit is a waste the industry can no longer afford.But the bigger story is a return to fundamentals. In a "sea of sameness" driven by AI, both argue that creativity becomes the real advantage, backed by 30 years of Effie data showing that the insight, the storytelling and long-term brand and agency relationships are what move a business. They also get into the tension every CMO lives with, from the roughly 60% of budgets still going to performance to the transformation fatigue that 76% of marketers admit to, plus the regulatory battles, two new Effie categories, and the burning problems each would hand to the most brilliant minds in the room.00:00 – Meet the People Who Speak for the Whole Industry: Charley represents around 130,000 agency people; Stephan speaks for over 10,000 brands.02:47 – Agency Side vs Brand Side: how their backgrounds, and L'Oréal's "poète-paysan," still shape how they lead.05:24 – What These Two Bodies Actually Do: protecting the industry's "licence to operate."15:00 – The €1 Billion Pitch Problem: how much Europe wastes on pitching every year, and the guide built to fix it.19:45 – Why the Pay Model Broke: why "time and materials" was never great, and how AI turned it into a risk.21:52 – What Replaces It: the shift to output and licensing fees, royalties, and productised process.24:13 – Hours vs Impact: why clients no longer want to buy hours, they want to buy outcomes.28:51 – Why Creativity Wins: why agencies will not disappear, and why creativity cuts through the "sea of sameness."29:47 – The Performance Trap: why 60% still goes to performance, against the Binet and Field evidence.34:18 – What Keeps CMOs Up at Night: what marketers admit off-camera, and the 76% transformation fatigue stat.36:52 – Principles Over Processes: why top-down transformation calcifies, and the shift to empowering teams.41:38 – Creativity Is a Skill, Not a Department: why creative thinking cannot be boxed into the creative team.43:38 – 30 Years of Effie: why an insight is not a fact, and the "explain it to your grandmother" test.46:07 – The Relationship Effect: why five-year partnerships are twice as effective, and the influencer surge from 0% to 30%.48:42 – Two New Effie Categories: Effie for Sustained Success and Effie for Democracy, and why now.51:41 – Better Marketing, Full Stop: why effective, responsible and sustainable marketing are now inseparable.53:13 – Which Agencies Thrive: the archetype model, from "busy by design" to "distinctly scalable."55:25 – The 58:hour Challenge: the burning problems each would hand the industry's best minds.CONNECT WITH REBORRN:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/reborrn Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reborrn.company/Substack: https://reborrn.substack.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@reborrn.companyCONNECT WITH EFFIE EUROPE: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/effie-awards-europe/Website: https://www.effie-europe.com/